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Veterans plenary
Meeting of Veterans plenary - 22 March 2006
US of S Speech for Plenary
Good morning ladies and gentlemen. It is wonderful to see so many of you here at the sixth Veterans Plenary. I know many of you have travelled far to be here today, and I very much appreciate your commitment.
I would like to add my personal thanks to Mike Shellard. This is Mike’s last Plenary and I am very grateful to you, Mike, for all your support for the Veterans Programme. I’m sure I speak for everyone here in saying that your determination to improve the lives of our veterans will be greatly missed, although all the work you have done will, without doubt, continue to benefit veterans in the future.
It is almost a year since I was appointed Minister for Veterans in May 2005, a year which has been a particularly exciting one for veterans. It has been a real privilege and a pleasure to lead the government’s veterans programme.
It will not surprise you that over the last twelve months I have had the chance to meet a great many veterans, from many different age groups and with diverse backgrounds and experiences. All, however, have served our country, and it is my firm belief that as a Government we must ensure they are properly cared for once they finish their service and that the nation recognises their unique contribution.
I have been impressed and encouraged at what has been accomplished to date. You will already have heard about some of the achievements during the last twelve months, and I would like to underline how much this success depends on partnership, both across Government and with the public, private and voluntary sectors, in particular with the ex-Service organisations.
During my time as Minister for Veterans, I have seen at first hand the dedication and hard work of ex-Service charities, as well as the very real improvement such efforts bring to our veterans’ community. I value greatly our collaborative relationship with the ex-Service organisations and I am very keen to build further on this constructive relationship. We have our own distinctive roles but, by working together and sharing information, we can raise awareness of veterans’ issues and address their problems more effectively.
All involved in the Veterans Programme should be proud of what has been achieved. However, I believe that if we are really going to provide the best possible service to our ex-Service personnel, we must constantly be receptive to new ideas and views, alert to any gaps in provision and active in considering how best to meet any problems that are identified.
For this reason I announced last June a review of the original Strategy for Veterans, which was first issued in March 2003. You can find a revised version of the Strategy at the Veterans Policy Unit stand. This sets out clearly how we plan to address the needs of veterans for the future and provides information on what we have done.
I am looking forward to hearing your views and taking your questions shortly. For the moment though, I’d like to share with you my vision of how the Veterans Programme will be developing over the next twelve months.
The 60th anniversary of the end of the Second World War last
year marked the conclusion of a major phase in our commemorations programme. But
there are major anniversaries just over the horizon where we will mark other
significant milestones in the achievements of our Armed Forces.
Fifty years ago, the British presence in the Suez Canal Zone ended with Operation
Musketeer. The final period of the presence, from 1939 to 1956, is
being marked by an event at the National Memorial Arboretum on Tuesday 30
May, and I am looking forward to attending.
The 25th anniversary of the South Atlantic Conflict falls next year and the MOD is sponsoring the UK’s national commemoration. Planning is on track and details will be made public as our work progresses.
Following the success of Veterans Awareness Week in 2005 and after subsequent consultation with the ex-Service organisations, it has been decided to launch Veterans Day as an annual event.
The 27th of June has been selected as the day on which to celebrate Veterans’ Day this year and in subsequent years. The date this year coincides with the 150th anniversary of the institution of the Victoria Cross and also the 50th Anniversary of the formation of the Victoria Cross and George Cross Association.
The London focus for this year’s Veterans Day will be the Geraldine Mary Harmsworth Park which is adjacent to the Imperial War Museum in London. You will appreciate that this is still very much in the planning stages but it is intended that there will be three main marquees in the Park – one for ex-Service organisations, a NAAFI refreshment tent, and an educational exhibit which will focus on VCs and GCs and the exceptional courage which they displayed.
I see Veterans Day as a further, important step in our bid to reach younger people which is why I will be launching a UK wide art competition aimed at 8-11 year olds. It will be on the theme of the Victoria and George Crosses and schools will be encouraged to develop the theme of valour, honour, bravery and courage through their pupils’ work. Art work will be displayed in one of the marquees in the park and prizes will be awarded.
Having a background in media myself, I have plenty of experience of the power of the media to influence the way we all think, whether subliminally or more directly. While we often have to deal with the negative press, I think Veterans Day is a wonderful opportunity to tell the stories of the positive qualities and achievements of our veterans.
It is imperative, if Veterans Day is to ‘catch on’ and if we are to succeed in educating and informing public perception, that events should be organised across the UK. Local as well as national press must be engaged in reporting events. We must also take the opportunity to make sure that every veteran and his or her family knows about the Veterans Helpline and about the gateway it provides to advice and assistance for those in need.
The task of promoting Veterans Day is one that falls not least to me. I was in Newcastle last week where I recorded a number of interviews for local radio and the press to publicise both Veterans Day and the VA helpline. I would like to take this opportunity to urge you and your organisations to organise events in your local area.
Finance will be available from the MOD to support some of you in your endeavours although I must stress that we do not have the amounts so generously provided by the Big Lottery last year. If you think that you might be able to organise an event that advances the recognition of veterans, young and old, not least among the younger generations, then have a chat with the Veterans Policy Unit and they will be happy to advise you on how you might develop those plans and how to apply for financial support. An application form for local event funding and a Veterans Day leaflet are also available on the Veterans Agency website.
I gather Admiral Wilkinson brought you up to speed on the Armed Forces Memorial and the significant events in the life of the Project during the last year. May I take this opportunity to confirm my support for the creation of this Memorial, which will beyond doubt be a major step forward in recognising those members of our Armed Forces who have served their country and given their lives in consequence since World War II.
A vital part of my responsibilities as Minister for Veterans
is to ensure that Service personnel - our nation's future veterans - are
given as much help as possible to make a successful transition to civilian
life and that if things do go wrong in civilian life, for whatever reason,
appropriate support is provided.
I am sure the Director of Resettlement will have made the point that the
vast majority of personnel find service a positive experience and reintegrate
very successfully into the civilian community. Unfortunately, a relatively
small minority find it harder to do so and are at risk of social exclusion. The
MoD is involved in a number of initiatives to tackle and prevent such problems,
working with others in the public, private and voluntary sectors who share
our common goal.
Only last month, I was pleased to sign the deeds gifting a piece of MoD
land to English Churches Housing Group to build a new hostel in Aldershot.
This will help vulnerable single service leavers develop independent living
skills, find suitable accommodation in their chosen area and get a job. The
Aldershot project is a truly joint project, led by ECHG with land gifted by
MOD, capital funding from the ODPM and financial and other support from the
Local Authority. Building is now underway, and we expect the facility to open
in 2007.
An important factor in wellbeing is good mental health and officials here
continue to work with colleagues from the four health departments and Combat
Stress to ensure excellent support and treatment for veterans with mental
health problems across the United Kingdom. In taking this forward
they are advised by both clinical specialists and others expert in commissioning
health services.
This is a big challenge involving a range of key players and it is taking
time. However I am happy to say that progress is being made. For
instance the May edition of the Chief Medical Officer Update sent to all
doctors will include an article on medical services to military reservists
and veterans
Finally, I would like to draw your attention to the MOD’s Veterans
Challenge Fund. I was pleased to announce last October the indefinite extension
of the Challenge Fund, which pump primes activities that address an identifiable
gap in the existing activity or knowledge supporting the Government’s
Veterans Programme.
A number of those organisations represented here have already been direct beneficiaries but we welcome applications from any organisation seeking to better serve the veterans community.
There are, of course, criteria governing the allocation of funds, but these encourage a wide range of activities and the Veterans Policy Unit staff would welcome the chance to talk to you about any ideas or plans you may have and they will assist wherever they can in supporting you to see those projects through to fruition. You can obtain a leaflet with details of the Veterans Challenge Fund on the Veterans Policy Unit Stand.
Once again, I am delighted to see so many of you here today at the Veterans Plenary. You have a key role to play in helping us to get across to the public and the media the contribution that your members have made to this nation. The numbers in Britain today who have had any direct experience of the Armed Forces are decreasing each year, and the level of knowledge and understanding among the young is particularly low.
But the service given by our Armed Forces is a model of much that is best in our national tradition.
Many of you I know have provided the backbone to much of our work over recent years. And I cannot emphasise too much the value that we place on this constructive and generous partnership and its importance if we are to deliver the ambitious programme we are setting for ourselves. The figures tell us that we have perhaps 5 million veterans out there and over 10 million in the larger ex-Service community. That is a tremendous power waiting to be harnessed.
On that note, let me hand over to Major General Mike Shellard to chair the Open Forum, and I look forward to taking any questions you may have.TRANSCRIPT OF OPEN FORUM WITH DON TOUHIG MP, MINISTER FOR VETERANS, CHAIRED BY MAJOR GENERAL MIKE SHELLARD, CHAIRMAN COBSEO
This transcript has been produced from an audio tape. Whilst it has been edited for accuracy, any minor errors that remain are due to difficulties with the sound recording.
My name is Sue Davis and I'm from the Combined Veterans Forum. The latest medical evidence coming from New Zealand using new technology to test the blood of 50 nuclear veterans who witnessed 9 nuclear explosions in the British Grapple series at Christmas Island show that the first 18 tested showed severe chromosomal and genetic damage and almost total loss of their immune system. All this caused by ionising radiation fallout from the nuclear weapons. Now my question is in the light of this evidence will the government and the Ministry of Defence continue to deny that the British veterans much nearer to ground zero and directly off Christmas Island suffered any harm?
Thank you. I'm very aware of the subject and the issue, indeed I have a memorial to nuclear test veterans in my own constituency and most October's I'm there with the parade and we lay a wreath. I was aware of it before I became an MP, a Minister, and I understand the anxiety and the concerns and the arguments that have put and I came to this, I come to it still with a complete open mind. Indeed I had a very interesting meeting, I hadn't long been in the department when I challenged where we stand, where we are, how we've reached the conclusions that we've reached. On the basis of the responses I had I saw that at this stage I did not believe that we could take the argument forward and say that the nuclear test veterans would want us to take it forward. But again coming back to the point, I don't have all the answers and so I had a very useful meeting with John Lowe, the nuclear test veteran's organisation recently; Nicholas Frayling, some of you may know Nina Chichester who is their chaplain and we entered some very useful dialogue. Now I'm not saying at the end of the day that we will come to a conclusion that the nuclear test veteran's have a case to answer and should be responded to but I think I need to better understand their arguments, the department needs to better understand their arguments and the pros discussions we're having at the moment I think are going to be very fruitful in that respect. I would hope we have another meeting I think I've just written again to John Lowe following our meeting. We'll have another meeting before too long when we will have considered the points that he and his colleagues made in some more detail and I rather sense now there is a better dialogue, there's been a huge suspicion. I mean I saw some, a headline in a magazine that they had recently which rather gave us a bit of verbal GBH in that sense that, and I understand the anger and frustration but I don't think anything is served by that and I think John and the others now agree that it's better that we sit round and have some dialogue, I can't promise at the end of the day we will get to where you want us to be but I certainly want to explore this in much more detail and if I come to a conclusion that we can't agree with what the nuclear test veterans have said then we want to make that quite explicit and clear but only when we've had the full and frank discussion and explored all the avenues. I've made it clear to John and his colleagues and I make it clear to you now I have an open mind on this if I can be convinced then I will respond but I have to be convinced and we can better do that through dialogue I think at the present time.
George Ross, Royal British Legion Scotland, Minister, sitting in your Central Advisory Committee on War Pensions. Really can I refer to you, the initiative of the Veteran Awareness Day this year being 27th June. Last year we had a Veteran Awareness Week and it came up on Scotland rather quickly and we had our problems up there because connected with that was the G8 Summit followed by Veteran Awareness Week and this had a knock on effect as with our schools and our Legion, we had great difficulty in organising putting this together due to short notice and other events which were taking place. Nevertheless this year we became aware early I think around about February when Gordon Brown announced the 27th June as being Veteran's Day. How is the Legion up there to embrace such initiatives and welcome such initiatives and will plan and do whatever to meet those initiatives? We find it difficult you know to implement the duties at such short notice and we would like to be fore-warned well in advance because organisations up in Scotland do have a yearly planner and we sit down at the beginning of the year or prior to it happening, put these things into place and then all of a sudden the 27th June is upon us and it boils really down to bad management or the amount of projects and by that bad financial management regarding implementing these projects. Minister, could we be informed earlier.
Thank you very much. I take the point and of course it will be June 27th next year and the year after so you've got a bit more advance but I do take your point.
Steve Overton - North West War Pensions Committee. Minister one light question and one slightly more serious. One - with all the European nations with their bank holidays, public holidays and associated holidays, being double the number in this country, would it not be possible to make Veterans Day a public holiday in which the nation will breathe readily in agreement for that thing. The second point to my question is I was recently in India where there seems to be a terrific amount of real hardship from ex-Army in the 2nd World War and thereon a pittance of a pension from this government of about 900 rubies a month on average. Is there any more positive way we can help those excellent people and soldiers who fought for our nation just the same as we did and make their quality of life a good deal easier.
On the first point you make there are no plans to make it a public holiday although lets have ambition. I think that these things are difficult to agree. I mean when I was a Wales Minister there was one hell of a great row whether St David's Day could be a public holiday or it couldn't be a public holiday and the difficulty is getting this agreed. But I think we've started on a journey it seems to me in making the whole country more aware of veterans and we started with the Veteran's Minister, Veteran's Agency and so on and so forth and I look to many of our allies and other countries who do far more I think in for veteran's and supporting veteran's than we are yet able to do. So I see this not as an event in one sense but as a process which will grow and develop. Now I can't say whether we'll end up with a public holiday on Veteran's Day but certainly I think we should be working to ensuring that the county is well aware, better aware of what veterans have done and the service they have given and that we find better ways, more ways, progressing, as I said earlier we can't stand still in which we give help and support to veterans. On the second point you make I'm not aware, well I'm only vaguely aware of the issue that you mention, I'll take it away and look, I don't know that there is anything we can do, I'm not sure how we've reached the agreement to the payment that goes to those who fought with our country because as far as I'm concerned their commitment was as great as ours in that sense and you know perhaps I could come back through COBSEO or something and perhaps you could give me a response to the question you make.
Michael Kennedy, Publicity Officer, Combined Armed Forces Federation. We were quite interested in what you said about publicity of newspapers, could I bring you to this headline from the Guardian which says: "angry soldiers demand the trade federation". I don't think that was publicity. The main reason why we were set up actually is to investigate and hopefully renew generation into the 1975 pensions crisis which was ** from pay for Service personnel who left the services before 1975. We maintain that had there been a federation at that point in time before 1975 then perhaps the pension rights which we were entitled to would be in place. We would refer you back to Lord Lethanual in 1971 in the House of Commons when he, said a flat no" to Trades Federation. Later on Fred Murray in 1977 said "possibly we might be able to do it". I sent a letter to the MOD and the MP and Geoff Hoon replied: "perhaps * lottery funding I'll hold up my hands and we might be able to right this wrong". We maintained that * a federation similar to the police federation in force at that time then this pension right which we're demanding now at this point in time would have been righted. What do you feel?
There are two points which you make there. I am not convinced of the arguments for a forces federation. It will be considered now we're doing the armed forces bill, it can be considered as part of the armed forces bill if colleagues on the committee wish to consider it but I personally believe there are well established and proper mechanisms for a redress, we're going to enhance those now in the bill of any problems or complaints of any service man or woman has and as I say I do not think at the present time that a federation is the right way forward. On the second point you make about the pensions can I ask perhaps Jonathan Iremonger from the Veterans Policy Unit, Jonathan can you shed any light on that point?
For the future the position on pensions is that the Armed Forces Pay Review Body will have a role at looking at the Armed Forces Pension Scheme, arrangements and how they compare with good pension practice more widely. A union would never address, I don't think, a current union, the position of retired people, unfortunately you may say but it wouldn't have that role. You of course have the Forces Pension Society who have been lobbying very effectively on that issue but it's an issue across the Public Services, it's not just an Armed Forces issue and the government have taken the view that addressing that problem would not be affordable, it's one of a number of legacy problems people who didn't get pensions with less than 22 years service before 1973. A vast range of problems in a sense those were part of peoples terms of service at the time and it's a problem that is at the moment too difficult because too, because it is unaffordable. I'm sorry.
Damon Jarrett - Heroes Return. Just a question about the local funding for Veteran's Day Minister? How much is available nationally for the Veteran's Day events. Is this going to be given nationwide promotion and is Mr Gilbert aware if it is going to be given nationwide promotion of what it's about to hit him, will this affect or denude other areas of the MOD budget and a possible solution? Can we ask the Big Lottery Fund once more to dig into their cavernous pockets as the heroes return and Home Front Recall were wonderfully successful PR victories for them.
I think you're right they were hugely successful and I commend them for the support they gave quite readily as far as we're concerned. The budget is limited at this stage because this is our first attempt to have a national day to commemorate veteran's and much of it will be focused on what we're seeking to do in London. I am conscious that as I said to you in my remarks I want to try and spread this as we progress throughout the nations and regions in the United Kingdom, it may well be that sometime in the future we will have to look at some ways in which we can give further assistance to other parts of the country in order to commemorate Veteran's Day. The Veteran's Challenge Fund isn't perhaps the appropriate way of providing funding for events for that day but again I'm prepared to look at any ideas anybody has got in which we can give help and support because I'm determined so far as the challenge fund is concerned is not to have a penny left, I want it to be distributed to those who want to do things to celebrate veteran's. So I'm not looking at this stage to say well look we could look at the challenge fund as a way of funding things for Veteran's Day throughout the country but I wouldn't shut my eyes to it completely at some stage down the line.
Cyril Blackburn - Suez Veteran's Association. Minister the Armed Services Memorial and the Veteran's badge are of course very welcome but there's surely something more important than that. Since the end of the Second World War there are hundreds of men and women who lost their lives and have never received a posthumous medal of any kind. Amongst their number are the 28 who lost their lives in the UK at the hands of the IRA in bomb attacks at Guildford, Hyde Park, Regents Park and the Royal Marines School of Music in Deal. I really think that first things should come first and there should be a posthumous medal awarded by the Queen as tangible recognition which the Armed Services Memorial just cannot fulfil. Will you please propose that, thank you?
Can I first of all say your point about the veteran's badge, over 200,000 of these badges have been issued, they are hugely popular. I'm getting lots of credit for it, it's nothing to do with me honestly, I mean I'm basking in the glory of other peoples work on this, I inherited it when I became Minister and I've had some wonderful letters from people. A lady in my own constituency when I opened a flower festival at the local chapel, her husband had gone down, he was a flier, gone down in 1941 over Northern France and she was 8, 7 or 8 months pregnant so clearly her husband never knew the child, a son never knew his father but she's got a veteran's badge now and she is saying you know this is the first thing I can give my son that would have been his fathers and it's really important and I have some wonderful letters from people who greatly appreciate the veteran's badge and about 4 to 5,000 applications for new badges a week and on June 27th Veteran's Day we will extend it further then to 1959 and as we, the only reason I'm not extending it right the way through is just for the sheer demand, the volume so that will take some time and we'll work our way through. As to the point you make I will take it back and look at it, these things as you know, all of you, instituting new medals are very difficult, there's a process, there's a procedure and which all these things have to be decided and scrutinised and decisions arrived at but I will take back the point you make and again I'll come back if I may through COBSEO and pass out a response to all the organisations.
I am Roy Wilson and I'm Liaison Officer for the National Service Veteran's Association. In the last couple of months I have wrote to you and each time you've passed it on to Mr R T Coney. Now I must thank you really in one respect because you are not aware of what he wrote. Firstly if I may, is the fact is about these bolt medals? Now as a serviceman and who's ** put our life on the line we have never had any recognition for National serviceman. We can service, we can die and men from my regiment who are in graves, the only thing that they've got is a telegram from either from the MOD or a tombstone which is on their heads saying they was killed and ages of 18, 19, I've been going with this for quite a few years. So I got a reply from, well not your letter but from Mr Coney and I asked him the question and he avoided it and what he said medals can only be issued by the Queen. Now what did we do wrong, are we expendable, did we die for nothing, you see you keep saying about veterans and it comes up. Well the thing is we filled a gap after 1945 and the widows all they got is a telegram. I deal with people that phone me up and want to know where their father's are laid; I have them from South Africa, Canada and everywhere else. The second part of his letter which I didn't ask for was the fact is that medals can only be worn by those medals that have issued to. Then he goes on, which is the cherry on the cake if I don't mind putting it, he says about widows, widows was only granted after 1914-1918 because millions were killed. Now that privilege is now ended. Are you going to try to tell me that you as a Minister are going to tell widows that they cannot wear their medals for their husbands; I go to Remembrance Day and there you see children wearing their father's medal, I also go to Westminster Abbey, they're lovely ladies, very senior, they wear the top medals that you can possibly be granted to a man as a VC's. Are you going to say you cannot wear this? What is this country coming to? Do we serve, do we die or do you just forget us and push us to one side? Thank you very much Minister.
I think the point you made you certainly won't be forgotten and I think that's right because you make an important and valid point. I do see the letters that come to me and I do clear the replies before they go back and I'm sorry if the reply is not that helpful, or to you in that sense. But no it isn't the responsibility of the MOD or anybody else to police the wearing of medals, I mean this is a personal matter and I don't think we should in any way seek to police it. But can I suggest what we might do in view of the issues you raised, you can range across a number of things, if my office fixes up an appointment you come in and have a chat to me and let's have a discussion about it and let's see if we can resolve any matters between us.
Major James Campbell from East of Scotland War Pensions Committee. This is a question that concerns thousands of veterans in Scotland and serving soldiers to. In view of the highly cynical emasculation of the Scottish regiments at the hands of an English dominated army board and probably government, may I ask why the Brigade of Guards was excluded?
I know this is a very serious matter so far as you're concerned and I can tell you as you might have gathered from a little lilt I've got, I'm a Welshman, and it would be figured in Wales very much at the same time and the concerns about the decisions that were taken at that time. The decisions were supported thoroughly by the MOD and those who serve at the MOD; I understand the difficulties and concerns that it caused people. I can't give you any reason why the Brigade of Guards was excluded at all but I do understand the point you make, the decisions have been made and I think we just have to work forward now and I regret that as I say I've had representation in my own constituency when I was the Wales Minister too about the concerns that the changes made but there are always changes of this nature which will take place. We believe it's in the best interest of our forces and I think the important thing now is recognising it was a difficult decision, it was a decision that people who were affected by it found very difficult to accept, I think it has been accepted and now we have to move forward.
Six members of my association attended the 20th July.
Name your association?
RAEC association.
Thank you.
And we are deeply affected by 2 ***. At the same period of time the children and my wife at primary school also celebrated the day and they dressed up in the appropriate clothes of that period. It seems to me if you want to take this forward.... Is that too loud? If you want to take this forward perhaps a way of doing it might be to introduce it into the curriculum at primary schools and then it's taught on an on-going basis year after year after year because that is not fallow ground, that is the rich ground. Yes just a suggestion.
No I take your point, I mean I've got 2 young granddaughters aged 12, they're like little sponges in terms of the information they suck up and so on and so I think it's fantastic and I see that as I go round schools in the country and I actually took part, I sat in on a lesson, in one of the schools in my area in which they were doing a lesson on the last war and a particular part of the last war. The greatest part for the youngsters is when one of the great grandfathers of one of the youngsters came in and talked about his experiences and so on and so forth and he brought in a banana and, a banana yes and he said well you know children of your age at the last war they didn't know what this was because of shortages and so on and so forth and it really brought a message home. And the other exciting thing for the children anyway he brought in the old coins before we had decimalisation and gave them coins, you know can I take this away, a silver sixpence and so on. And it brought home you know the kind of life we led, the difficulties we had at that time and I think it's fantastic and then went back later to see some of the work the children had written and it's amazing how much they comprehended and how they managed to express their concerns, their feelings, their interests in what went on at that time. And that's why I keep harping back we have continually to keep getting that message across to a new generation, that's the challenge for all of us.
James Houldsworth, Fylde Ex-Service Liaison. Minister thank you very much for the 27th June, however, I feel that the success of last year, a veteran's week, was something that we certainly should have expanded upon. We in Blackpool actually had a veteran's week and the cohesion between the schools, the veterans and the general public was so fantastic that the councillor got together with the veterans again this year to say can we run the veterans week and I think that that's something that we should be targeting at so that it can involve the whole community right across the board, the whole veterans week rather than just a veterans day.
I've just seen your leaflet as I came in now and so you're busy at working at it as we are. What I wanted to be careful of this year, last year was the 60th commemoration of the end of the last war, there was a huge week of events and so on, we had events in London and across the country, I didn't want us to try and stretch too far this year and it fell flat because of the timeframe and it's not a commemoration year in that sense as say in perhaps next year might be with the Falklands and so on. So I'm really this is a building block, veterans day and I see this being expanded in different parts of the country, 2 a week to just a few days around veterans day but I really just wanted to be modest in my ambitions this year rather than raise the hopes that we can do some great events to repeat last year which we couldn't do and you know last year let's not forget during that week we had the London bombing and I went along on that day to the exhibits and to attend the meeting and a luncheon with the RAF prisoners of war. My god they were a bunch of guys! I met a couple there, he was in a wheelchair, she was getting on in her late 70s, he was from Ellesmon, the Isle of Angusy, and their hotel was somewhere in West London and she'd pushed her husband so she was going to get through whatever, and I met a chap there, Mike - he was 82, and he said he got to Victoria station that morning there were no taxis and no buses running but he said "they locked me up in Germany for 4 years if that didn't bloody stop me this aint going to stop me"!! And I thought, my God isn't that a message to get across the commitment and determination and a guy all these years on was determined that nothing like that, these people are not going to change our way of life, they are not going to force us to live differently and that's what those who defended us in the last war proved and that's what we must make sure today's generation accepts and takes on that challenge as well.
